Bows With Plus Energy Bonuses - Guild Wars Forums

Greentongue · Feb 23, 2005, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Since bows are two handed and rangers are heavily energy dependent, and Expertise seems to vary each Beta Event, has anyone seen a bow with a plus Energy bonus?

This seems like a critical item for a Ranger. Once you get a bow with an Attribute requirement, it makes sense that some would provide energy bonuses. Maybe even in place of a higher base damage.

Bgnome · Feb 23, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59

i have heard of those +energy on hit mods showing up on bows.

Omnipotent Being · Feb 23, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35

I haven't seen any bows that have +energy, but I have a couple bows the give +1 energy on contact, but your energy regeneration is -1.

Ensign · Feb 23, 2005, 10:46 PM // 22:46

There aren't any bows with straight +energy bonuses, though there are likely rares with conditional bonuses, like '+2 energy when health is above 50%'.

Zealous Bow Strings are what you're looking for - +1 energy per hit, -1 energy regeneration. That nets you energy regen with normal shots, and with Dual Shot or Barrage they start to be outstanding.

Failing that, Marksman's Wager is still one of the best energy recovery skills in the game.

Expertise is really what you want, though. The problem is that it really don't do anything until you get it to a high (10+) level. At low level Rangers shouldn't even bother with bow skills, but should spend their energy on survival skills and their secondary class. You can switch into your Marksmanship and other Expertise based skills once you have Expertise up at a level that makes those playable.

It's really hard to understate how dependent on Expertise a Ranger is.

Peace,
-CxE

Greentongue · Feb 24, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

It's really hard to understate how dependent on Expertise a Ranger is.

But that's the point. To break that dependency and give better balance to the Ranger. Bows should have +energy base value. At least bows with Ranger specific Attribute requirements to use.

What I don't understand is if/why they shouldn't.

Ensign · Feb 24, 2005, 03:05 AM // 03:05

If you put base +energy on bows, then you're giving people Expertise *and* a greatly improved base energy supply. It isn't like it would be one or the other, people would use both, and skills would have to be balanced accordingly - thus making characters dependant upon both a +energy bow *and* Expertise.

I don't think Bows need +energy, I just think that Expertise needs to actually do something at low levels. You want your Expertise to be at least 9, and you likely want it into the 12/13/14 range. Until that point it just doesn't do enough to notice. If Expertise was frontloaded instead of backloaded as it is now, it'd be a much better attribute.

Peace,
-CxE

Greentongue · Feb 24, 2005, 12:57 PM // 12:57

So basicly adding +energy would address the symptom instead of the problem. Got it.
Thanks.

Acronym · Feb 24, 2005, 03:51 PM // 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greentongue

So basicly adding +energy would address the symptom instead of the problem. Got it.
Thanks.

You can find rare items then salvage them in hopes to find a componet to add to your bow. I found one to increase speed and engery on hit. Which means you should be able to find something to increase what your char may be lacking.

Ensign · Feb 24, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greentongue

So basicly adding +energy would address the symptom instead of the problem. Got it.

Yeah, that's pretty much it. Just imagine having bows out there like staves - +8 energy as an intrinsic modifier.

Now, at low levels, sure, that +8 energy helps deal with the high cost of your skills. But then look at what happens once you hit 14 Expertise with the same bow at high levels. Suddenly that +8 energy looks like +20 energy from all of the reductions - so you haven't really dealt with the huge energy imbalance, you've just cranked up the energy available to everyone proportionally.

The problem really is with Expertise and the way its 'linear' returns actually give off decidedly non-linear results. It does next to nothing until level 9, and at level 12/13/14 you get great returns. Plus it's an energy multiplier, so any further additions are just that much more effective.

Basically you just have to suffer through the low levels using skills from your secondary and normal bow attacks, and once you get into the level 15 range you can crank all your APs over and actually be an effective Marksman. It's an odd strategy, but it's the one that works.

Peace,
-CxE

Shrapnel_Magnet · Feb 24, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Hey, Ensign, I've read that @ level 12, Expertise should lower the cost of many Ranger skills by 60%... is that number accurate... and if it is, does it lower skills like say Read the Wind? Cause 60% off of 5 Energy puts it at like what? 2 Energy to cast? If that's the way it works, then wow... lol... I've never gotten it high enough to see a difference, that's why I ask.

Pharalon · Feb 25, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Expertise is current 4% reduction per lvl. So at lvl 12 it would be 48% reduction. Still pretty hefty.

Ensign · Feb 25, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51

*coughs*

Any questions?

Shrapnel_Magnet · Feb 25, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

lol, hmm, I guess I didn't look too hard in the Guides section then, eh? That's pretty cool then... the reason I asked was because I remember having Expertise @ level 3 and not seeing a difference in my 10 Energy skills (on the HUD)... (like Dual Shot)... does it not show you when you hover your key over the skill in question? I really didn't pay attention when I was using it cause I figured that my HUD wouldn't lie to me, lol.

Thanks.

Pharalon · Feb 25, 2005, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrapnel_Magnet

I really didn't pay attention when I was using it cause I figured that my HUD wouldn't lie to me, lol.

Big mistake. The HUD lies to you all the time. Never trust it, it is actively working agianst you. Trust only us.

Ensign · Feb 25, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31

The article was just added recently, you didn't miss it before. =)

The HUD is hard to read for figuring out Expertise - your energy is constantly regenerating, and you can actually have fractional energy values. At Expertise 3, a 10 energy skill would cost 9 energy - not enough of a difference to really notice during a firefight. The attribute really doesn't do anything until you get it up to 9, and it doesn't start to really shine until it gets to 12. Before then the effect is pretty much negligible.

Peace,
-CxE

Halfy · Feb 25, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44

But I am assuming that expertise levels still apply to skills linked to that attribute. ie Marksmans wager: the energy gained per hit is depended on level. On that note 5-9 is not a great spread considering 12+ levels. Does that mean from lvl 1-4 you get 5 energy back, 5-8, 6 energy and so on?

This clarification will be helpful as I am actually making a build with expertise (no bow attacks, only for the Wager) so I would rather not dump needless points into it and take the 5 energy at lvl 1.

any suggestions?

Ensign · Feb 25, 2005, 02:41 AM // 02:41

Marksman's Wager is 5 energy per hit at attribute 0, 6 at 2, 7 at 5, 8 at 8, 9 at 11, and 10 at 14.

Whatever you're doing with a Ranger, you're still going to be benefitting from Expertise so you'll likely want some anyway - I don't think I'd pump it just for MW. Of course if I was thinking about taking it just for MW I'd seriously consider flipping my professions.

Peace,
-CxE

Galatea Orea · Feb 25, 2005, 02:56 AM // 02:56

What is your opinion on whether the Ranger is underpowered. I have a Level 11 with a fairly good bow who hardly does any damage. She certainly couldn't survive alone. Does damage increase at higher levels, because right now it's frustrating.

Halfy · Feb 25, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

The question of what exactly Marksmans Wager fuels is ambigious. Here is the quote from the Ranger profession here at GWguru

Quote:

Every rank in Expertise reduces energy costs on any attack skills, preparations, or traps by 5%.

I have also read in the guide thread on expertise this:

Quote:

Expertise reduces the costs of all Attack Skills, Preparations, Traps, Stances, and Shouts by 4% per attribute level.

So which is it? In the case of my build, I have shouts, stances and curses, while only one prep and no bow attacks. According to the first, high expertise would not apply. However, if the second holds true, It would be worth investing some points.

Any light shed on this would be helpful.

Galatea what are your ranks in Marksmanship? The more the better your damage, as well as a nice bow to go along with it of course.

Ensign · Feb 25, 2005, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halfy

So which is it? In the case of my build, I have shouts, stances and curses, while only one prep and no bow attacks. According to the first, high expertise would not apply. However, if the second holds true, It would be worth investing some points.

The second is correct - Expertise was changed to be less powerful but more broad, and that was showcased for the first time this last BWE. So it's pretty much an attribute that you want to use with any Ranger skills now - only Rituals aren't affected as far as I know but even that may be incorrect. Not that it matters at 5 energy and those cast times.

As I said, if you aren't investing in Expertise you need to seriously rethink your class selection. It's easily the most powerful primary attribute in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galatea Orea

What is your opinion on whether the Ranger is underpowered. I have a Level 11 with a fairly good bow who hardly does any damage. She certainly couldn't survive alone. Does damage increase at higher levels, because right now it's frustrating.

The big problem with the (Marksmanship) Ranger is that they live and die by Expertise. Without 9+ Expertise, they're probably the worst class in the game as the bulk of their skills are grossly overcosted - with 12+ Expertise and a 12 Marksmanship, they're debatably the best. The reason is that Expertise takes those badly overcosted skills and makes them *undercosted*, letting you pretty much spam them as often as you like.

If you want to be dealing damage you absolutely need a high Marksmanship attribute - ideally you want it firmly planted at 12. Eight ranks of Marksmanship should double your damage output, with a max at level 12. In addition high Marksmanship will let you use the better bow available, giving you a double hit of damage. Without a good bow you aren't going to be doing much of anything - you really want a 16-28 damage bow with the best mods possible.

But, in short, the Ranger isn't a bad class. They're like the old D&D mages - a bad joke at low level, but if you grin and suffer through it you end up with a powerhouse later on.

Peace,
-CxE

Feb 23, 2005, 01:06 PM // 13:06	#1
Greentongue Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Orlando, FL	Bows With Plus Energy Bonuses Since bows are two handed and rangers are heavily energy dependent, and Expertise seems to vary each Beta Event, has anyone seen a bow with a plus Energy bonus? This seems like a critical item for a Ranger. Once you get a bow with an Attribute requirement, it makes sense that some would provide energy bonuses. Maybe even in place of a higher base damage.

Feb 23, 2005, 10:46 PM // 22:46	#4
Ensign Just Plain Fluffy Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Berkeley, CA Guild: Idiot Savants	There aren't any bows with straight +energy bonuses, though there are likely rares with conditional bonuses, like '+2 energy when health is above 50%'. Zealous Bow Strings are what you're looking for - +1 energy per hit, -1 energy regeneration. That nets you energy regen with normal shots, and with Dual Shot or Barrage they start to be outstanding. Failing that, Marksman's Wager is still one of the best energy recovery skills in the game. Expertise is really what you want, though. The problem is that it really don't do anything until you get it to a high (10+) level. At low level Rangers shouldn't even bother with bow skills, but should spend their energy on survival skills and their secondary class. You can switch into your Marksmanship and other Expertise based skills once you have Expertise up at a level that makes those playable. It's really hard to understate how dependent on Expertise a Ranger is. Peace, -CxE __________________ Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.

Feb 24, 2005, 03:05 AM // 03:05	#6
Ensign Just Plain Fluffy Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Berkeley, CA Guild: Idiot Savants	If you put base +energy on bows, then you're giving people Expertise and a greatly improved base energy supply. It isn't like it would be one or the other, people would use both, and skills would have to be balanced accordingly - thus making characters dependant upon both a +energy bow and Expertise. I don't think Bows need +energy, I just think that Expertise needs to actually do something at low levels. You want your Expertise to be at least 9, and you likely want it into the 12/13/14 range. Until that point it just doesn't do enough to notice. If Expertise was frontloaded instead of backloaded as it is now, it'd be a much better attribute. Peace, -CxE __________________ Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.

Feb 25, 2005, 12:51 AM // 00:51	#12
Ensign Just Plain Fluffy Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Berkeley, CA Guild: Idiot Savants	coughs Any questions? __________________ Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.

Feb 25, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03	#13
Shrapnel_Magnet Pirate? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: British Columbia, Canada Guild: Idiot Savants Profession: R/	lol, hmm, I guess I didn't look too hard in the Guides section then, eh? That's pretty cool then... the reason I asked was because I remember having Expertise @ level 3 and not seeing a difference in my 10 Energy skills (on the HUD)... (like Dual Shot)... does it not show you when you hover your key over the skill in question? I really didn't pay attention when I was using it cause I figured that my HUD wouldn't lie to me, lol. Thanks. __________________ Show Some Beta Love!

Feb 23, 2005, 02:59 PM // 14:59	#2
Bgnome Elite Guru Join Date: Feb 2005	i have heard of those +energy on hit mods showing up on bows.

Feb 23, 2005, 06:35 PM // 18:35	#3
Omnipotent Being Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Pen Island Guild: The Dopplegangers	I haven't seen any bows that have +energy, but I have a couple bows the give +1 energy on contact, but your energy regeneration is -1.

Feb 24, 2005, 12:57 PM // 12:57	#7
Greentongue Frost Gate Guardian Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Orlando, FL	So basicly adding +energy would address the symptom instead of the problem. Got it. Thanks.

Feb 24, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50	#10
Shrapnel_Magnet Pirate? Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: British Columbia, Canada Guild: Idiot Savants Profession: R/	Hey, Ensign, I've read that @ level 12, Expertise should lower the cost of many Ranger skills by 60%... is that number accurate... and if it is, does it lower skills like say Read the Wind? Cause 60% off of 5 Energy puts it at like what? 2 Energy to cast? If that's the way it works, then wow... lol... I've never gotten it high enough to see a difference, that's why I ask.

Feb 25, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19	#11
Pharalon Beta Tester Join Date: Jan 2005 Guild: Carebear Club	Expertise is current 4% reduction per lvl. So at lvl 12 it would be 48% reduction. Still pretty hefty.

Feb 25, 2005, 01:31 AM // 01:31	#15
Ensign Just Plain Fluffy Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Berkeley, CA Guild: Idiot Savants	The article was just added recently, you didn't miss it before. =) The HUD is hard to read for figuring out Expertise - your energy is constantly regenerating, and you can actually have fractional energy values. At Expertise 3, a 10 energy skill would cost 9 energy - not enough of a difference to really notice during a firefight. The attribute really doesn't do anything until you get it up to 9, and it doesn't start to really shine until it gets to 12. Before then the effect is pretty much negligible. Peace, -CxE __________________ Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.

Feb 25, 2005, 01:44 AM // 01:44	#16
Halfy Academy Page Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Canada Guild: Charter Vanguard Profession: Rt/Me	But I am assuming that expertise levels still apply to skills linked to that attribute. ie Marksmans wager: the energy gained per hit is depended on level. On that note 5-9 is not a great spread considering 12+ levels. Does that mean from lvl 1-4 you get 5 energy back, 5-8, 6 energy and so on? This clarification will be helpful as I am actually making a build with expertise (no bow attacks, only for the Wager) so I would rather not dump needless points into it and take the 5 energy at lvl 1. any suggestions?

Feb 25, 2005, 02:41 AM // 02:41	#17
Ensign Just Plain Fluffy Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Berkeley, CA Guild: Idiot Savants	Marksman's Wager is 5 energy per hit at attribute 0, 6 at 2, 7 at 5, 8 at 8, 9 at 11, and 10 at 14. Whatever you're doing with a Ranger, you're still going to be benefitting from Expertise so you'll likely want some anyway - I don't think I'd pump it just for MW. Of course if I was thinking about taking it just for MW I'd seriously consider flipping my professions. Peace, -CxE __________________ Don't argue with idiots. They bring you to their level and beat you with experience.

Feb 25, 2005, 02:56 AM // 02:56	#18
Galatea Orea Academy Page Join Date: Feb 2005 Guild: Knights of Temerity Profession: R/Mo	What is your opinion on whether the Ranger is underpowered. I have a Level 11 with a fairly good bow who hardly does any damage. She certainly couldn't survive alone. Does damage increase at higher levels, because right now it's frustrating.